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Post by jollymcjollyson on Dec 1, 2006 11:02:52 GMT -5
The modern human has been around for more like 40.000 years, but yes. At this point, I'm not arguing the belief in a personal god, rather, the scientifically inaccurate things that such people *may* buy into. And Den, it seems, is our case in point (no disrespect meant). I've heard debate on that point, but that 10,000 years difference, all things considered, is pretty minute.
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Post by johnsapphire on Dec 1, 2006 12:39:18 GMT -5
Touche.
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Spinner
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Post by Spinner on Dec 9, 2006 23:43:11 GMT -5
oooohh....I'm not good on the whole science perspective but this is how I see. Everything in existence that abides by our rules is necessarily contingent of another. Since it is THE rule, that everything came from another; The only plausible conclusion would be to suppose the existence of an entity (could possibly be an unconcious universe or the big bad ass yahweh himself) that does not abide by OUR rules. But funny thing is really, most people who make this argument fail to state that this entity may possibly have its own rules to to follow.
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Brokenhearts
Rank 15 (On Angie's Level)
Beware, all ye who talk 2 me
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Post by Brokenhearts on Dec 10, 2006 17:03:24 GMT -5
But why shud there b rules? y cnt things jst happen out of their own accord? jst… EXIST bcoz they do? i think im mostly sayin this coz im nt a v big fan of rules in general... bt it's an arguement. i think it's similar 2 the arguement that everythin exist thru chaos, bt coz ive bin revisin spanish all day all i cn think of rite now is "buenos noche". as soon as i cn think in terms of RS- ill gt bak 2 u with my view (which is pretty d@mn weird even if i may say so myself )
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Spinner
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Post by Spinner on Dec 10, 2006 20:19:21 GMT -5
yes, that is a good question. And although I cannot answer that question we all know that there simply are rules although we do not know why. It's just a as good a question as why does anything exist at all. All we know is that it does although we cannot explain why. OUr sciences and logic proves to us that we do abide by certain rules. And if you mean the entity, If you would be so kind as to read again, I said "MAY POSSIBLy" abide by its own set of rules not that he necessarily must.
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Spinner
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Post by Spinner on Jun 4, 2007 9:38:56 GMT -5
I wish this topic would be alive again..
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Post by Denithar on Jun 6, 2007 13:14:01 GMT -5
How so? I am always ready to discuss religion.
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Spinner
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Post by Spinner on Jun 8, 2007 0:25:46 GMT -5
Yay.. then.. let us commence hmmm... can God create a rock so heavy that he himself cannot lift it?
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Post by Denithar on Jun 8, 2007 8:41:43 GMT -5
I would first say that it is an irrelevant point, but if pressed to answer the question on a merely chatting level rather than a theological level then I would say yes he could chose that in the same manner that he chose to live on earth as a man, with man's weaknesses for a man's life and death, and chose not to defend himself when taken by the men who would kill him.
How about a harder one. Is it possible to follow a religion without knowing of its existence? In other words, if a man put others before himself, admitted his unworthiness, and tried to please the higher being who created all in existence, must we not consider him a Christian whether he has ever heard the story of Jesus Christ?
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Post by Anna!/Gilly on Jun 8, 2007 8:51:52 GMT -5
I would first say that it is an irrelevant point, but if pressed to answer the question on a merely chatting level rather than a theological level then I would say yes he could chose that in the same manner that he chose to live on earth as a man, with man's weaknesses for a man's life and death, and chose not to defend himself when taken by the men who would kill him. How about a harder one. Is it possible to follow a religion without knowing of its existence? In other words, if a man put others before himself, admitted his unworthiness, and tried to please the higher being who created all in existence, must we not consider him a Christian whether he has ever heard the story of Jesus Christ? I think that makes him a Christian, definitely. It seems silly that just because one doesn't know a name it's unacceptable. Of course, this person could also be claimed by another religion. I don't know what other religion, though, because frankly I don't know much about them.
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Spinner
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Post by Spinner on Jun 9, 2007 7:11:59 GMT -5
au contraire.. it is of the greatest relevance... if you would indulge me for the span of my rant, you will see my point.. sooner or later...
assuming that Jesus was indeed God, you are right. He did make himself human, and he did give himself human weaknesses. But didn't he overcome these weaknesses? didn't HE rise from the grave. Anyway, THAT is irrelevant.
Sure he suffered, but as you had already said. He "CHOSE" not to defend himself. THat is not to say that he couldn't defend himself, he merely chose not to (and since you're a catholic then you should know that the fact that Satan tempted him means that he WAS capable of overcoming his weaknesses). This is a completely different thing from my question.
In analogy, your example would only mean that he can create a rock that's pretty heavy for him to lift, but he could still lift it. But only he chose not to.
My Question is:
Could he create something that he cannot undo/lift. Not because he chooses not to, but because he incapable of doing so?
Can God create something that would be impossible for himself?
Now analyze the fact that if he is capable of making something that is IMpossible for himself then that means that there is something he can't do (which is life the rock). This then contradicts our assumption that God can do anything
But if he can't create the rock.... then this again contradicts our assumption that he can do anything.
See the paradox? Note: Please indulge me. And I'd appreciate it if you would answer me in a none christian point of view since from my point of view, your examples that are taken from the bible are nothing more than pieces of literature for me and their credibility is doubtful. I apologize if I offend you for that statement, but I feel the need to be blatant about it so as to make my point firm.
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Post by Denithar on Jun 9, 2007 11:00:00 GMT -5
As far as I can see it doesn't make any difference to the debate, but I am not Catholic.
I do not know. Thus my reluctance to answer the question. A human mind is an amazing thing, but severely limited when compared to eternity and omnipotence. Yes, I see the paradox. Am I bothered by it? No. I have come to accept the fact that I cannot understand all things. I see paradoxes in every position that I could possibly hold.
This is rubbish. Everything I give is from my world view, as is everything you give is from your world view. However, do not hesitate to be blunt, as I assure you I shall not apologize for being blunt myself. As for the Bible having doubtful credibility, you have the right to say so. However, when discussing something that is not testable, what is a source that you would view as having credibility?
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Spinner
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Post by Spinner on Jun 9, 2007 11:34:56 GMT -5
actually.. i see no source of religion as completely credible. useful perhaps, but hardly ever credible. The bible has as much credibility as any old history book (based on testimonials that aren't necessarily accurate)...
and about the paradox... I am going somewhere with this, but I'm still trying to figure out the words to use...lol... so maybe til then, how bout answreing this question;
can god create a traingle with 4 sides...?
***** I apologize for the "non-christian point of view" comment, I should have said differently. But it has come to my intention actually that most christians I've come to discuss things with, rely on the reason of faith when they can no longer give a sensible answer. Not that I have anything against this, but I see it as annoying when "some" christians use "having faith" as an "excuse" for being both ignorant and illogical. Maybe that is what I meant by a noe christian-point of view. Although it is my problem more than anything, but it irritates me when people use and throw around christian dogma abd canon as though they were some kind of established laws or fact of reality.
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Post by Denithar on Jun 9, 2007 12:19:55 GMT -5
There is NOTHING that is completely credible. Religion has nothing to do with it. Everything humanity can use is flawed in some way.
Well, if we argue this idea from the point of two who believe there is a God then we would say that God created the triangle the way it is, but man named it such. But of course he could have created it differently. However, he did not, thus, when we see a triangle we see no other way that it could have been created. God could have made man capable of producing offspring on his own. But he did not. And thus, science tells us that humans are not able to reproduce with only a male, or any number of males, lol. God could have created something beyond our understanding, because his powers go beyond human capability to know. I am not saying do not try to know God's ways. I try every day. I am saying that you never will understand the half of them.
Look at it this way. There are things that a horse simply does not understand. Things we could never explain to them, no matter how hard we tried. Thus God and man, except between them the gulf is much larger.
I understand, and I agree. I have seen Christians use faith as a a defense of ignorance. However, be warned. Many other things can be used as excuses for what is wrong. Freud was so focused on particular ideas that he ignored many exceptions to his theories. Skinner may have permanently harmed human children in his search for knowledge. Businessmen can use their jobs as an excuse to ignore their families more deep needs for a father. People find excuses everywhere so they can take the easy path. Don't ever believe religion is the only source of this evil.
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Post by ohsocameo on Aug 26, 2007 15:59:03 GMT -5
I believe that it is human nature to ask questions. I also believe that it is human nature that when others cannot answer our questions that we come up with our own explanations. I believe that years ago, people were asking the same question we are today. How did we come to be? I believe people used logic to decide that who/what created them must be of a higher power. This is where the idea of deities began. From there I believe people of authority used the belief of deities to scare people into behaving as they saw fit.
To simplify, I believe there was something or maybe even someone who created the world we live in.
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