Brokenhearts
Rank 15 (On Angie's Level)
Beware, all ye who talk 2 me
Posts: 4,934
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Post by Brokenhearts on Oct 25, 2006 19:42:08 GMT -5
as much as i wud luv 2 post a comment… i no 4 a fact i'll jst gt in2 another ragin arguement- so i'll jst put it like this… i do not like bush- bt, as much as i h8 2 admit it, he probably was better than kelly. i cant STAND blair, but i'd rather a labour prime minister than than a conservitive ANY day. and the old lib dem leader (cnt remember his name) was a complete prat. gosh… tht goes 2 show wat sort of powers we have in the first world countries these days scary tht… there r 2 things i wud like 2 say tho… 1) brtain and america are so-called 'free countries' cnt we keep it like tht? pro-choice 4 all. gay marriages, abortion, religion (even tho im still totally messd up about mi own beliefs), all of it. we cnt dictate wat another person believes or dusnt believe- it's up 2 the induvidual. 2) about the exam thing. an exam cnt test a person's character, it only tests how much they've revised for the exam and how much they cn remember. it's a person's character tht determines if they cn lead a country- not how well they passed physics or math. im dun… *backs away and runs far away frm the thread as possible b4 she cn cause offence*
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Post by Denithar on Oct 25, 2006 20:18:56 GMT -5
We love you Broky. As long as people can debate civilly and politely, then there can be no problem. Total freedom is called Anarchy. It doesn't work out well. And abortion and gay marriage aren't a belief, they're an action. No, we can't dictate what an individual believes, but we have laws about their actions, and I'm sure you would agree that the point of law is a good thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2006 12:16:26 GMT -5
Only some laws are a "good" thing
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Post by johnsapphire on Oct 26, 2006 17:54:25 GMT -5
A number of things:
First off, how can stem cell research be playing God if I do not believe in him--it? Assuming there is a God (which I rarely do)
1) He guided us to this, if he didn't want us to do it, he should have made some mention of it in the 2000 page sleeping-pill which you call 'eternal morality'.
2) We wouldn't be God, we would be (to quite Mother Teresa) "God's pencil".
And a few statistics. The majority of America is, as you say, Christian (some 80 percent). 98% accept the jewish/christian/muslim god. Of the hundreds of Ph.D. scientists on The National Science Assembly, "97% reject the idea of God". (Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris). I, for one, trust the people who have SCIENTIFICALLY tested all different facets of the universe MORE than a book whose only claims to infallibilty are that it makes reference to places in the world that did, in fact, exist when it was written and it, itself, says it is, AND the 50% of America that insists the world was created 6000 years ago (about a thousand years after the Babylonians invented glue).
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Post by eakyra on Oct 26, 2006 21:33:34 GMT -5
Well, i've heard of them now!
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Post by Gil Alexander on Oct 26, 2006 21:42:46 GMT -5
It is not "my" concept of marriage. It is the majority of America's concept of marriage. There are many examples of things that a minority group would like to be legal, but because they are a minority it won't happen. There are different drinking ages, speed limits, marriage ages, etc. When the majority of America want to legalize gay marriage, fine. But if the majority consider it to between a man and a woman then that is law. Good point, however that's what political parties are for; and if you took that attitude then everyone might as well have the same opinion on everything. It's that minority that can change things in the world; though a pro-gay rights political politician or some work of art that minority can become the majority. So it's actually kind of pointless to say that it doesn't matter about minority beliefs because they're the beliefs of the minority. The sad thing is that minorities are mistreated so much in this country, from immigrants to homosexual people.
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Post by Denithar on Oct 26, 2006 23:55:52 GMT -5
For Gil
Whether it's sad or not, that is Democracy, and unless you have another government system up your sleeve it's here to stay. But you are assuming that because something is only pertinent to a minority group that they will be the only one's to promote it. I'm not Muslim, but I promote the right for them to practice their religion as long as it does not in any way endanger anyone else. I also would vote for a Muslim if I thought he was a better man than a Christian candidate. I'm do not have a medically disabling condition that makes it impossible for me to participate in the economy, but I will be paying taxes to support those people. And I would vote to keep supporting them.
There wouldn't have to be a majority of Homosexuals in America to legalize gay marriage. Their advocates just need to convince the majority, or at least the majority of the legislature, that it is right/just for them to have the ability to marry whom they choose.
However, I must say that your last post Gil was very circular and confusing. If you feel I missed something then please reiterate.
For John
It's not the research that bothers me, it's how the material to research on is obtained, and how it could be used. But I'm not against Stem Cell research, so debate with Dusky, not me.
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Post by eakyra on Oct 27, 2006 12:33:19 GMT -5
There are pro's and con's to every story. Everyone has their own beliefs, and thats really all that matters. Pushing others to convert to your way of thinking is what the real travesty is. Let people be. And Den, im not choosing. I would like to keep both of you if thats ok.
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Post by Denithar on Oct 28, 2006 11:32:37 GMT -5
Yep, that's why debate is so enlightening; you can learn more about your position by having it attacked than most lectures could teach you. However, I must slightly disagree with you. Everyone has their own beliefs, and that's good and fine, but it's not all that matters. I believe that there is a right and a wrong, a truth and an untruth. But you're right that we cannot push people to believe what we do. And I freely admit, I may be wrong! It is possible. But saying that truth does not matter is a killer of intellect, for what is the purpose of anything if there is no truth? I'm glad you're not choosing Eakyra! And you need to remember that I debate just as heatedly with my fellow Christians. It's just how I think.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2006 18:30:09 GMT -5
what is "truth"? something man decided upon?
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Post by eakyra on Oct 28, 2006 21:25:46 GMT -5
Thank you Den! I do agree with you, there are some definate right and wrong ways. But what I meant was that, people will always differ in their beliefs, but as long as their beleifs makes them strive for the general good and to better themselfs, I am fine with it. And very good point Shmuggy.
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Brokenhearts
Rank 15 (On Angie's Level)
Beware, all ye who talk 2 me
Posts: 4,934
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Post by Brokenhearts on Oct 30, 2006 7:48:44 GMT -5
just randomly, mi theory on 'truth' is wat the victor says it is. therefore- no human knows what truth really is. mi theory
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Post by Denithar on Oct 30, 2006 9:21:52 GMT -5
what is "truth"? something man decided upon? I'm not sure quite sure I understand your question. There is truth in a statement that is proven by facts. (Which doesn't mean it's eternally true, as new evidence may come up. But it's true till disproved.) Then there is ultimate/eternal truth. This cannot be well understood by man, except to know that it must be or the universe would never have existed because the mind boggling complexity is not possible without truth.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2006 17:03:08 GMT -5
so therefore, truth is something decided by man. Someone's opinion. albeit in some cases, the concept of "truth" may be apparant, but for the "truth" of many cases in life and society these days, it is an opinion decided upon by man. Par example, you believe the truth is that God created the world and sent his son and all that yeah? Whereas I do not believe that to be the truth. I'm just rambling on about truth and how it varies on each person and how there is no one "truth" et cetera... and there is a purpose in many things, even if you cannot identify a truth in it
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Post by Denithar on Oct 30, 2006 19:02:43 GMT -5
Truth is not decided upon by man. There is TRUTH, and there are truths that man believes. Whether man is right or wrong, the eternal truth is still there. I'm not saying I know the truth of the universe. No man understands all of it. I'm saying I know it exists, because without it there would be no meaning, and if there was no meaning then we would not have created meaning for ourselves because that itself is meaningful.
And so that I can understand you: are you saying that neither of us is wrong? That the mind of man defines the truth. Or would you agree that one of us is talking untruth? I'm not asking which of us is right, just whether you would admit that one of us is wrong.
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